We are running “behind” this month, but not because we are running out of essays, articles, and podcasts. Just the opposite; instead of running away from the Christian Nationalism debate, we have spent the last month talking to more than a dozen leading thinkers—proponents and opponents—on the subject.

If you have been keeping up with Christ Over All, you know that we exceeded our budget on Progressive Covenantalism (September’s theme), as the essays and articles kept coming. That theme helped us think about the way God has put the Bible together, and it served as a foundation for how God has put his world together. In particular, it showed us how he has arranged the church to exist among, or in, or over—depending who you ask—the nations of the world.

Indeed, this question about church and state is at the heart of the Christian Nationalism debate. Seeking to bring light to that conversation, we interviewed historians like Mark David Hall and John Wilsey, pastors like Kevin DeYoung, Douglas Wilson, Tom Ascol, seminary presidents like Albert Mohler, editors like Timon Cline and Scott Aniol, and noted authors on political theology, men like Stephen Wolfe and Jonathan Leeman. Over the course of these interviews, with the addition of a few articles, including a lengthy review of Stephen Wolfe’s A Case for Christian Nationalism, we aimed to increase Christian light, without unnecessary cantankerous heat.

To date, I have received numerous encouragements from pastors, friends, and other onlookers, who have observed the way this format has served the church well. The open-handed style (thanks, Columbo) has provided the chance to hear what others are thinking, before offering a critique—whether sharp or soft. It has been our hope that this series of podcasts uncovered some of the convictions shared by proponents and opponents of Christian Nationalism, even as it revealed the fault lines that stand between them.

Next month, we will explore those differences further and begin to piece together our own contribution to the subject of church and state. To set expectations early, however, we don’t have an official statement to reveal or a neologism to unveil. Instead, we hope to provide analysis of what we have heard and to outline a preliminary consideration of biblical nationhood from an unapologetic Baptist position.

That being said, our understanding of Baptist theology as it relates to church and state is not that of the Anabaptists. (And I say that knowing my ancestors were of Amish stock). Rather, our posture is one of engagement with the world, and not retreat. While we gladly affirm a regenerate church membership, such separation from the world does not mean we should shrink away from seeking the welfare of the city. Christians who gather every Lord’s Day in local churches should scatter to various realms and regions to effect change on the world around them. Acknowledging that these earthly labors (good works) are not ultimate in the life of a believer does not depreciate the place of Christian vocation outside the local church. Rather, such good works—when properly ordered under our highest allegiance to Christ and his gospel—result in all manner of earthly good for the glory of God (see Matt. 5:16).

Indeed, such a position is something we will develop through the month of November (and probably into December), even as we know that many important questions will not be answered in the next few weeks. Nevertheless, we hope to move towards a biblical understanding of nationhood, and how the Word of God speaks of the church and the state. To that end, we move into the month of November.

To preview our approach a bit further, let me offer a few more reflections, which are followed by links to all of the podcasts we have now completed.

Making Disciples All the While Confronting the Nations

As many are beginning to see, the United States constitution, which has served to underwrite the American experience of religious liberty and democratic republicanism (to name only two effects), could not have come about without the prominence of Christianity and centuries of Christian influence on the continent of Europe. This Christian influence is something observed by Mark David Hall in his historical review of America’s founding, and it is something John Wilsey reinforced, as he demonstrated the way multiple expressions of Christianity informed the nation at given periods of time.

Indeed, with illegal immigrants streaming across the border today and pro-Palestinian marches defacing the monuments of liberty in Washington, D.C., we must begin to wonder if a nation that was founded with Christian ideals, even ideals tinctured by the rationalism of the British Enlightenment, can survive without repentance and some form of a return to the God of the Bible.

Liberty cannot last without morality. And morality has no endurance apart from the light of the gospel and the wisdom of God’s Word. And so, as Christians we must make disciples of all nations *and* charge those disciples to bring the light into every realm of society. Loving God and loving neighbor means telling them the good news of Christ and seeking their welfare by means of bringing the wisdom of God to bear on everything we do, or at least attempting to bring the wisdom of God into the public arena.

While God can build his church in nations hostile to the gospel, when the Lord does establish churches, faithful Christians should then pray for their rulers to permit the church to gather publicly, peacefully, and proactively (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Just the same, those who pray for the rule of Christ to be seen in local assemblies should also spread out into the field to improve conditions for the longevity of the gospel. If the Lord permits, as he has throughout the centuries, the establishment of the church in a given region will have visible effects for all those who are near to the influence of Christianity. This is a manifestation of God’s common grace, as Christian influences shape the moral ecology of society.

To be clear, only the Lord can save, but it does not follow that pre-conditions for evangelism don’t matter. Nor does it follow that God’s only concern is the souls of men. As creator of bodies and souls, God cares deeply for the conditions of men and nations. And hence, Christians in all places and times, have protected life and sought mercy for those in need—whether Christian or not. As one evidence, hospitals throughout our country continue to carry names like Baptist (Louisville), Methodist (Indianapolis), and Christ (Chicago). Likewise, if missionary agencies like ABWE can fund and found hospitals as a means of sharing Christ throughout the world, so Christians can and should consider ways and means to bless their neighbors through tangible acts of mercy or legal means of justice (i.e., laws that abolish abortion!). Rightly practicing such good works do not save, nor should they be permitted to replace the church’s command to evangelize, but they do prepare the soil for the word of God. Oh, for a society whose citizens—like the Ethiopian Eunuch—are predisposed to believe the Bible when met by evangelists!

Seemingly, one way the West has capitulated to secular ideology is through the a-political posture that pastors have taken. Albert Mohler helped us this month to consider the church’s public witness and the role that Christians, but especially pastors, have to speak out loud and in public. Somewhere in recent decades, Christians have cried foul for any speech that sounds political. Yet, what is wrong with pastors applying God’s wisdom to all areas of life, including politics? If anything, this last month has reinforced the fact that pastors need to relearn how to speak publicly.

In 1788 Samuel Langdon, brought Deuteronomy 4:5–8 to the New Hampshire legislation, calling this body of believers to learn from the ancient Israelites how to conduct themselves in the New World. In more recent days, Mike Johnson has acknowledged the providence of God in bringing him two seats away from the presidency. As Speaker of the House, he is unashamed of his Christian commitments. And as many have noted, while Presbyterians have written books about Christian Nationalism, the Southern Baptist legislator from Louisiana “did a Christian Nationalism.” The Lord, it seems, laughs at the nations and those who rage about CN.

In truth, if there is anything that we have learned from the ongoing debates about Christian Nationalism today, it is the fact that the most ardent opponent of Christian Nationalism—in the eyes of the Leftist media—is yet labeled a Christian Nationalist. Certainly, we need to consider how varying responses to this label will be employed with greater or lesser effect. Some will embrace the title and use it to define their position in three minutes (Douglas Wilson), while others will refuse the appellation, concerned that it assigns to the profane state a holy title (Jonathan Leeman). Regardless, those who fight against the title should remember that there will not be separate cells when and if we are locked up together. But I digress!

Clearly, as the secular tsunami washes over our nation, the public witness of the church is something pastors and churches must recover. Yet to do that will mean war of the cultural variety. Accordingly, the “church militant” must be more than a historic metaphor; it must be an identity that we recover with gusto—all the while remembering that we do not fight with the weapons of the flesh (2 Cor. 10:4–6). This is our calling in 2023 America, and it sets the context for our intramural debates.

If there is anything I walk away with from these twelve interviews on Christian Nationalism, it is this: It is possible to keep the mission of the church central *and* to see cultural (even political) engagement as friends and not enemies. Even more, it is not only possible, it is necessary. Acknowledging the fact that on the one hand it is possible to wrongly co-opt the church’s mission for purely earthly ends, it is short-sighted to ignore the culture around us on the other hand. Some may argue that lostness is lostness, and that “degrees of lostness” don’t matter, but I would suggest that biblically, “lostness” is a descriptor of the elect (lost sheep), not the reprobate. Historically, when the culture enjoyed a greater presence of Christianity, it served the purpose of preparing pastors or evangelists like Billy Graham to draw the net around a harvest of saints. And it was a net gain for the gospel.

Today, Christians must continue to see the church as a unique and holy nation. Indeed, the church, as drawn from all nations, is the only nation set apart for God. And to this kingdom of priests, God has given the keys of the kingdom, a symbol of royal authority, so that his people can establish God’s rule in their assemblies. Even more, this authority is what enables the church to go into all nations proclaiming the kingship of Christ (Matt. 28:18) and commanding men and women from every nation to repent and believe (Matt. 28:19). In this way, the church leads individuals out from the nations, but that is not all it does. It also confronts the wickedness of the nations and warns them of God’s judgment—both present (Rom. 1:18–32) and future (Rom. 2:5). In this way, the church has a public role.

God has given the church the keys of the kingdom to baptize believers (sorry to our paedobaptist friends!), and he has given the sword of the Spirit to announce salvation and judgment. As Christ reigns on high (Ps. 110), all things have been put under his feet. Hebrews 2 says we don’t see everything under the feet of Christ as yet, but that does not mean we are not seeing the rule of Christ today. Indeed, it is our mission to proclaim this truth—that God is saving his people and judging his enemies.

Still, to make this communication plain may mean recalibrating how we understand the primary role of the church (to make disciples) and the public role of the church (to confront the nations). For me, that’s a big takeaway from this last month and it is something we will revisit throughout the month as we begin to address “biblical nationhood”—a term used by Joe Boot that provides a helpful alternative to “Christian nationalism” (just in case you are looking for better language).

In the end, one of the reasons Christ Over All exists is to help Christians think biblically and theologically, not to mention historically and culturally, about the way in which the church should engage the world. In this last month, we sought to understand the arguments for and against Christian Nationalism, and if you haven’t listened in to the podcasts, you should. Below you have a full list of the interviews and longforms.

• Kevin DeYoung: Interview | Transcript.
• Mark David Hall: Interview | Transcript | Concise Article
• John Wilsey: Longform | Reading | Interview | Transcript
• Douglas Wilson: Interview | Transcript
• Stephen Wolfe: Interview | Transcript
• Brad Green: Review Part 1 | Review Part 2 | Reading
• Andrew Walker: Interview | Transcript
• P. Andrew Sandlin & Joe Boot: Interview | Transcript
• Tom Ascol: Interview | Transcript
• Timon Cline: Interview | Transcript
• Scott Aniol: Interview | Transcript
• Jonathan Leeman: Interview | Transcript
• Albert Mohler: Interview | Transcript

Pressing Toward Biblical Nationhood

Starting now (a few days into November), we pick up the conversation about Christian Nationalism with a variety of offerings. For starters, Andy Naselli will provide a taxonomy of the different positions about church and politics on tap today. His longform essay will kick off the month and will be followed shortly by a podcast interview with him. Trent Hunter will provide another introductory piece on the state of term “Christian Nationalism.” And after that, we will offer a series of biblical, theological, and cultural reflections that engage the subject of biblical nationhood. At the end of the month, the editorial board of COA will gather around the microphones to record a round-up of the two months and to offer reflections on where this discussion can and must go.

In all, our response to Christian Nationalism has not been entirely negative, nor positive. Just as we read the Bible on its own terms, we want to engage issues and arguments, not buzz words and straw man. Therefore, as we move into this month of analysis and argument, we hope to move the ball down the field in this discussion. If it hasn’t been apparent already, our goal is not to offer the final word on this subject, but to help Christians to understand the debate at hand and how to engage it with the full counsel of Scripture. This month, that continues to be our prayer and aim.

If such an approach has been helpful, please share it with others. We produce evergreen resources that equip the church to engage the culture with biblical and theological essays, articles, and podcasts. If the Lord has given you means to support the work of Christ Over All, we would love to hear from you and to partner with you to do this. We have big plans for 2024, but we can only do them as God provides. As the month continues we will share those plans. In the meantime, please consider if you would join us in the work going on at Christ Over All.

Our ministry exists to proclaim that Christ is Lord and to help you see everything as under his feet. Come join us in that glorious endeavor! Soli Deo Gloria!