5.42 Alex Kocman, David Schrock, & Stephen Wellum • Interview • “The Order of Love and a Defense of Biblical Patriotism”
Episode 239
63 Min
August 3, 2026
ABOUT THE EPISODE
Listen in as David Schrock and Stephen Wellum interview Alex Kocman on his COA Longform Essay, "The Order of Love and a Defense of Biblical Patriotism"
Timestamps
00:00 – Understanding Ordered Love and Biblical Patriotism
04:58 – Exploring the Core of “Ordered to Love”
07:50 – Augustine to Aquinas: Ordered Love’s Legacy
10:17 – Navigating Abuse and Misconceptions of Patriotism
15:41 – Distinguishing Love for People from the State
26:50 – Reclaiming Natural Affections: Nation and State
37:33 – Eschatology and the Persistence of Nations
43:54 – Cultivating a Missionary Heart for the Nations
50:30 – Worship, Decor, an National Affections in the Church
Alex Kocman is the Director of Communications and Engagement for ABWE and serves as an elder and as worship director at Faith Bible Fellowship Church of York (PA). He serves as general editor for Message Magazine and co-hosts The Missions Podcast. After earning his M.A. in Communication and B.S. in Biblical Studies, he served as an online apologetics instructor with Liberty University and a youth pastor in Pennsylvania, where he now resides with his wife and four children. You can find out more by visiting alexkocman.com.
David Schrock is the pastor for preaching and theology at Occoquan Bible Church in Woodbridge, Virginia. David is a two-time graduate of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is a founding faculty member and professor of theology at Indianapolis Theology Seminary. And he is the author of Royal Priesthood and Glory of God along with many journal articles and online essays.
